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Thread: Old vs New

  1. #1

    Old vs New

    I saw the title of motorbike thread there and thought hey why not do this with cars and perhaps with a bit of a YouTube angle.

    Porsche's most favourite reviewer, Chris Harris, is famous for slamming the previous version of the essentially identical 911 that he is current reviewing, a previous version that a year or two ago was the pinnacle of motoring. As a launch video you really couldn't ask for more. You really need to get rid of your 991.sh1t right now and replace it with the 992.amazing. Just have a look at any 911 video of his and you'll see what I mean. It's hilariously transparent. This is one of my favourite examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVdme4ISq8Y&t=555s. It only takes him about a minute before he starts slamming the old one that he thought was absolutely amazing in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DWdH20Hmg. In that video it takes about two mins before he starts slamming the older 911 which he in a previous video praised as absolutely the best thing ever.

    Ok we get the picture.

    In the last little while, YouTube recommended a channel called Throttle House and I started giving it a go with my usual very low expectations of YouTubers shouting excitedly about basic stats that I could read on a web site somewhere but otherwise don't have a clue about what they're doing. But actually, these Throttle House dudes do a pretty cool thing that I'm surprised isn't more common out there. They compare a new car with an old car and quite often a very old version of it. Why do they do this? It's because they're not using press cars and they're not tied to a launch format so they can do and say whatever they like and suddenly we're getting more insights into what's what. Novel idea that.

    Alfa Gulia Quadrifoglio vs Alfa Romeo GTV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSZ0x1ZS04. A brilliant video this if you haven't seen it.

    Porsche 992 vs 997 (and a 993 shows up as well): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Kyn2XzAz4

    Mazda MX-5 ND vs NA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qppUHN2Uc

    and they have a few others as well.

    What's interesting with all of these is that they're generally not that complimentary about the latest versions and there's a lot of love for the simplicity and feel of the old cars.
    I'm with the resistance

  2. #2
    Nice find, will definitely give those a watch.

    Kind of in line with what you're saying - there's another channel that's quite good, if perhaps a little dry for some people called Savage Geese and he casts a fairly critical eye on all aspects of a car. The only channel I've seen that'll put new cars up on a ramp and examines the actual hardware to tell you something about the quality (or lack thereof in some cases. *cough* GM..) of the engineering. He did a review of the Tesla Model 3 recently, ages after the rest of the interwebs, but he hired a car for the review because he didn't want to be restricted by some manufacturer PR drone or be influenced by an owner who had deeply drank the kool-aid.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPEWaBYj4lA

  3. #3
    Great idea; I had a half written start of a thread sitting in a word doc on this very topic but you've beaten me to it and articulated it better. What prompted me to start it was an autocar review of the last three generations of GT3. The reviewer stated in relation to the 997 GT3's cornering ability versus the 991 that it had, wait for it, "substantially less grip, and once you’ve passed the technical limit, it develops an aversion for apexes that borders on the pathological.". I'm all for inventive use of language, but really...a 997 GT3, winner of every Car of the Year awards for a number of years has a pathological aversion to apexes on the limit? Fcuk right off with your shyte, autocar. Here's the keys to my A6 - go see what pathological aversion to an apex actually feels like.

    +1 on the Throttle House YT channel.

  4. #4
    Interesting, I don't watch lots of his videos but during the lockdown when things were quietish I was following his Q &A's on instagram. I put a question to him about owning a a 911 turbo and how people get wrapped up in analysis paralysis with all the minuscule details of options on a second hand one and is it really worth giving a sh1t about..... he never did answer my question. At the time I didn't think anything of it but maybe he does actually have some sort of financial incentive going on.

    I wouldn't think less of him if that was the case, fair play if he can get paid to say nice things about cars which are actually cool.
    Poor punctuation and spelling via iPhone keyboard & odd words here and there via autocorrect

  5. #5
    Thanks for YT suggestions - will look at those later. Interesting about Harris, didn't realise he did that as a serial thing.

    I think there is some merit in the simple and older is better argument, so for example we all know that the 997 is brilliant and the 991 and 992 are also brilliant but perhaps losing some of what made the 997 brilliant without gaining as much in other ways when doing non track relevant things. It stops there though, the 996 is not more brilliant than the 997, although it did have nicer steering feel. And the F430 is not more brilliant than the 458 and the 159 is not more brilliant than the Giullia. So it is possible to make this point on a case by case basis and also refute it on a case by case basis.

  6. #6
    Not at all surprised by their findings to be honest, in fact I wouldn't have had to read your post and haven't watched the vids because it's exactly how I'd feel about those comparisons already.

    At least the likes of Harris is getting paid a wage, he can throw the odd dig at a car but he cannot rubbish it. He's an enabler, a marketer. Off balance sheet for the marques themselves, but his livelihood depends on being asked to the next launch....I'm sure he's learned his lessons from being banned by Ferrari etc. previously. It's the influencers you have to watch out for, they've got nothing without the next gig so are even more compromised.

    My interest in cars basically stops entirely in the mid noughties which I would consider refinements of the 90s designs mostly, which in my mind was the decade things were best. Is this just aul fella syndrome?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dimitri View Post
    Is this just aul fella syndrome?
    Yes. There have been brilliant cars released since then.

  8. #8
    Gotta say, the start of that Alfa video cracked me up.

    I'd take that 105 GTV over the Quadrigfoglio (wonderful as that is too, dream daily driver) any day despite the deficit of power and cylinders.

    Onto the others.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    Yes. There have been brilliant cars released since then.
    I could refute it on a case by case basis

    Everything is good now. I think that might be the problem for me and the likes of Harris.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dimitri View Post
    My interest in cars basically stops entirely in the mid noughties which I would consider refinements of the 90s designs mostly, which in my mind was the decade things were best. Is this just aul fella syndrome?
    I wouldn't say my interest stops, but I do agree that the 90s was "peak car" - Cars had got to a point where they had all the good modern stuff like electronic fuel injection, variable valve timing that made them useable and reliable, but the bloat of tech hadn't set in quite yet. e.g.

    - you have EFI, electronic ignition and a decently sophisticated engine ECU, but cable throttles rather than by-wire.
    - You have power steering, but it's still hydraulic, and the steering systems are primarily rack and pinion which gives a better and more direct feeling than the recirculating ball systems of many 70s cars which are actually more vague.
    - You have niceties like aircon, power windows, but not a bloat of gadgets adding weight and complexity or wheels with an excess of buttons (except some technofest luxury cars)
    - Cars aren't total death traps like the 60s, but not as strict as post 2000s, so you have lighter construction, and you still have thin window pillars, good visibility, a good ratio of interior space to exterior etc.
    - NVH standards weren't as high as now, but in some ways, I think it makes cars more pleasant, though my wife would probably disagree. In many 90s cars, you hear lots of noise, but you get a lot of unfiltered, useful mechanical noise. You get less noise overall in modern cars, but I find then what you're left with is the annoying noises, like tyre roar and wind noise. That's a real challenge for EVs too.
    - Standards were at a tipping point where lot of genuinely old designs could still be sold. For at least part of the 90s you could buy a brand new Citroen 2V, Original Mini, Fiat 126, Renault 4 or Mexican built air cooled VW Beetle. Now I'm not saying buying one of these was neccesarily a good idea, but the point is you had the choice. I think nothing illustrates this better than that for a very brief point in the 90s you could walk into a Citroen dealership and buy the twee 2CV and futuristic look XM off the same showroom floor.
    - Bubble era - the 90s followed the economic good times of the 80s, Yuppies in the UK and of course the utterly mind boggling blip that was bubble era Japan. It meant lots of very frivilous and niche designs got signed off that were more adventurous than some concept cars you'd see now.
    - You have cool electronic/electromechanical interventions appear in cars, from simple ABS to four wheel steering, and stuff like Active Yaw Control in Evos and ATTESSA in Skylines, but it's all very mechanical, using actual differentials, versus nannying no switchable systems in some modern cars, or systems that distribute torque via cheap ass methods like braking a single wheel rather than splitting torque via a differential. That said, EVs offer the opportunity for more sophisticated, more responsilve and granular torque distributions than any of those cars could dream of.
    - Less platform sharing - manufacturers shared parts and engined between cars, but there were more unique dedicated chassis cars out there, rather than 50 squillion MQB derivatives.
    Last edited by crank_case; 11-09-2020 at 01:41 PM. Reason: hydraulic not pneaumatic, doh!

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