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Covid-19 Pandemic - The New Hope

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  • Demographically speaking and on average, Ireland is about ten years younger which I think makes a difference in terms of people being less sceptical. Germany also didn't have the severity of the lockdowns we had, and they have kept the statuses of vaccinated/recovered/tested equal for (say) access to places you'd like to visit where we don't have the 'tested' bracket. Because there's so much free testing you can just get a test whenever you want to go out/to the football/whatever so if you're unsure about the vaccine there's no real push to get you over that threshold. Not being able to use air travel doesn't really matter to them the same way it does to us as you can just drive or take the train if you want to go to another country.

    And as always, there's the west/east thing: some areas like Saxony (the Donegal of Germany) only have a 51% vaccination rate.There's a school of thought that the right-wing voting east just rejects all Government policies out of hand no matter what they are. Another thought is that having existed under totalitarianism for so long the eastern Germans just don't do what they are told readily, another is that the GDR itself ran very aggressive vaccination campaigns with questionable vaccinates that are still in living memory and people over 60 still rail against that.
    1998 Porsche 911 3.4 Carrera 2 (996)
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      • An expletive laden shouting match erupted in the shop till que today when a lady confronted another female of the indigenous ethnic group standing behind her about her not wearing a face mask. Basically the unmasked lady suggested colourfully that the complainant lady should leave the shop if she felt she was in danger. Thankfully I was at the very back of the que and so considered it was inappropriate for me to get involved.

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        • Originally posted by foyler View Post
          As for the folks abstaining or declining vax, then heading out to enjoy the freedoms the rest of us have facilitated only to end up in hospital & ICU, drunks in A&E come to mind - back of the fcuking line!
          Foyler, you are not alone in that opinion (although its one I don't share), and Fergus Finlay was on Newstalk the other day and could barely hide his contempt for people who had not taken the vaccine. I found his comments offensive and virtually resignation material considering he is a HSE Board Member. The clear implication of his words was that those people were somehow less deserving of healthcare, as they were somehow responsible for their condition and are taking up a bed for the sick people there through no fault of their own. If you extend that line of thinking, we might refuse healthcare on all sorts of grounds. Like smokers who get lung cancer, drinkers who develop liver disease, the joyrider who comes in in an ambulance one evening. The mordibly obese person who suffers a heart attack etc. i think thats exactly the opposite mindset to one that has us shutting down society and donning the green jersey in the first place for what is statistically still a small number of people who will suffer bad consequences.

          Also, its predicated on knowing with certainty that the vaccines are long term safe and therefore a no-brainer decision, that they provide long term protection and dont require infinite boosters. that new variants will not come along (such as this MU variant that is apparently 100% vaccine resistant). So when you take into account the recent Israeli data that someone already infected is 13 times less likely than a vaccinated person to suffer a breakthrough infection, it might be that in the long run we will look back and say that clinically we didnt buy any real benefits with vaccines, we just bought time to allow ourselves to construct a set of rules that allowed us to re-open society with a clear conscience.

          So all I'm saying is, one thing this pandemic has taught us is that proclamations of certainty are dangerous and keeping an open mind on all sides is the best approach.




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          • Originally posted by Bunk View Post
            the joyrider who comes in in an ambulance one evening.

            I was hoping the 2 lads that took a car of mine, would crash into a tree or something, and do damage to themselves.
            Flipped it in southill alight.
            But I don't think anything happened to the scrotes.
            Last edited by Flet; 10-09-2021, 09:25 AM. Reason: mod snip

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            • Let’s say the going gets tough in the winter and actual hard prioritisation needs to be done as part of triaging. Would you select someone with a high chance of survival, ie the vaccinated, or a bunch of very difficult to treat with low survival chance unvaccinated? That’s the actual real decision that needs to be made. Survivability is a major decision factor when it comes to scarce hospital resources. It’s often based on age and other parameters and we can just add being vaccinated to that list and it would be clinically correct to do so.
              I'm with the resistance

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              • Originally posted by DMZ View Post
                Let’s say the going gets tough in the winter and actual hard prioritisation needs to be done as part of triaging. Would you select someone with a high chance of survival, ie the vaccinated, or a bunch of very difficult to treat with low survival chance unvaccinated? That’s the actual real decision that needs to be made. Survivability is a major decision factor when it comes to scarce hospital resources. It’s often based on age and other parameters and we can just add being vaccinated to that list and it would be clinically correct to do so.
                Triage is a different issue to what FF was talking about which was criticising people for "not doing their civic duty" and in effect ridiculing them for their decision not to take a vaccine which I completely disagree with. It should be a personal choice.

                When it comes to battlefield medicine I do agree with you and plenty of places like Bergamo had to make those tough decisions early last year. However, the answer you get might be the opposite of what you described. For example, it might be that a doctor might decide that a vaccinated person that STILL ended up in hospital had no immune response to speak of, and an elderly vaccinated person that still got extremely sick might be a lower survival prospect than a 40 year old unvaccinated person. In effect, it might be that if you end up in hospital after being vaccinated, your immune response is to all intents and purposes the same as if you were unvaccinated, and others factors like age, BMI, underlying conditions etc have a much higher weighting in a triage decision than vaccination status.

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                • Maybe, maybe not. I'm fairly sure I've read that vaccinated people are easier, in fact much easier, to treat than unvaccinated people. I don't know the details as being vaccinated this is a very minor concern in my life. I also wouldn't assume as an unvaccinated person that priority would be placed on specific treatments and hardware for unvaccinated vs vaccinated. You're never going to be on the right side of priorities when you're unvaccinated as you're assuming that the same people who very much believe in vaccines will somehow spend time thinking about people who aren't vaccinated. That would be an extraordinarily naive assumption irrespective what is perceived to be right or wrong.
                  I'm with the resistance

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                  • Originally posted by Bunk View Post

                    ...such as this MU variant that is apparently 100% vaccine resistant...

                    Where are you getting this from Bunk? I haven't read as definitive a conclusion.
                    sigpichttps://mingshitters.wordpress.com/

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                    • Try zerohedge.com or antivaxxerbollocks.com, they're usually quite trustworthy when it comes to this kind of thing
                      I'm with the resistance

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                      • Originally posted by DMZ View Post
                        Maybe, maybe not. I'm fairly sure I've read that vaccinated people are easier, in fact much easier, to treat than unvaccinated people. I don't know the details as being vaccinated this is a very minor concern in my life. I also wouldn't assume as an unvaccinated person that priority would be placed on specific treatments and hardware for unvaccinated vs vaccinated. You're never going to be on the right side of priorities when you're unvaccinated as you're assuming that the same people who very much believe in vaccines will somehow spend time thinking about people who aren't vaccinated. That would be an extraordinarily naive assumption irrespective what is perceived to be right or wrong.
                        Not sure what nerve I’ve touched here and maybe I am extraordinarily naive but I rather think the doctors at the frontline wouldn’t discriminate against someone or care about them less because they weren’t vaccinated (other than clinical risk assessment as per my previous post…..I don’t know the answer, I’m not informed enough to presume which way it falls, but can imagine how factors other than vaccination COULD be more relevant but perhaps you know better). Through relatives I have a lot of exposure to hospital staff and I can’t say the attitude you describe reflects any of them but maybe that’s just my narrow view of it.


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                        • I know its not vaccinated or unvaccinated debate but the decisions dmz has said happened in italy. The medical staff literally jad to choose the most likely to survive given how bad thing had gotten. Thats pretty much a war like like triage scenario

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                          • This weeks LEA data

                            Last edited by Mark F; 10-09-2021, 08:31 AM.

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                            • Last edited by Mark F; 10-09-2021, 10:51 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by foyler View Post
                                Anyone else find it quite stark or surprising that we're actually 30% better than ze Germans at something requiring following rules, paper work and doing what your asked/told by authority.......
                                Not sure if I'm proud or concerned but leaning towards the former as its allowing business' like ours to function & thrive to a degree & I suspect its mutually beneficial on the basis of folks being allowed to live again.

                                As for the folks abstaining or declining vax, then heading out to enjoy the freedoms the rest of us have facilitated only to end up in hospital & ICU, drunks in A&E come to mind - back of the fcuking line!
                                Not surprising at all.

                                There is a reason so much of the world's pharma is here and it is not all tax.

                                We are good at that regulated industry stuff so it must be something in our psyche.

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